We talk about overcoming resistance and leading equality and diversity in the music industry.
Editor CAROLINE PAIGE
Photographer BRAD BIRD
That issue of people not being able to achieve their potential is what speaks to me and makes me do something.
My third interview for the FEMALE LEADERS series is with Remi Harris MBE. She’s a trainer, coach and business adviser to the creative industries. Remi helped create the first equality and diversity plan for the UK music industry. And was awarded an MBE in recognition of her work.
A child of the 80s, she grew up in North London with her teacher parents. She credits her need to make a difference to them. As well as the vibrant scene of activists, authors and artists within easy reach of her home in Haringey. As a student, she supported creatives behind the scenes at theatres and music nights. She got her big break working with indie record labels, including Ministry of Sound, just as the music industry was transforming to a digitally driven world.
I’d heard Remi speak about female leadership. I was intrigued by her seemingly effortless stage presence and wealth of knowledge. And she has a leadership training programme for women in the music industry. I wanted to find out more.
So, Remi…
What’s the Music Leaders Network and who can join it?
OK, so it’s a transformational leadership programme for mid-career women in music. We don’t sit people in a classroom and just tell them about leadership. We’re aiming to transform them. To change them as a person, so they become more confident and effective in what they do. They can earn more. They can have difficult conversations more easily and they can negotiate with confidence. All those things come from that initial change.
It’s also about being in a room with other brilliant people – hearing about their experiences and how they handled them. It develops people’s understanding of their own feelings and behaviour. And it looks at whether these are working for them and whether they’re as effective as they could be. It means doing some internal work – to feel you belong and are confident in that space. And to find an answer for wobbles and doubts. It may also mean questioning things you’re overconfident about. It’s about changing how you do things and how you feel about yourself. And exploring what you know about yourself and your capabilities.
How did you get into the music industry and music leadership?
The UK has a wealth of independent music companies. In 1999, indie record labels set up a trade association called AIM and I got a job there right at the start. We set up courses and mentoring schemes and gave advice to members of the association. I was there for 10 years and had a good time. Then I went to work for UK Music a lobbying organisation that represents the whole music sector. That was more schmoozing politicians and writing policy papers and campaigning.
The co-founder of the Music Leaders Network, Tamara Gal-On, has been a coach for 20 years. She coached me on a music leadership programme in 2007. That experience was life-changing for me and I wanted to recreate it. I was asked by a Manchester charity, Brighter Sound, to create a leadership programme. I knew I wanted to work with Tamara. I knew it had to involve coaching – as a space for people to reflect on and achieve personal aims.
I like a new project. The business I’m running now isn’t what I thought I would be doing when I became self-employed 10 years ago. I didn’t think “I want to be a trainer.” I just saw the next opportunity and did that. I want the work I do to have a legacy.
What legacy would you like to create?
From early in my career, I enjoyed starting new projects that would help people. I’d say we need a group to sort this problem out and I’d start a committee. I’d get involved. Then, I became interested in equality and diversity and – with colleagues – started a group in 2007 to get the music industry to have diversity policies in each company. Now, I help people be the best they can at what they want to do.
The legacy I want is somewhere there – in the change it makes for people. Maybe the legacy will be “she made a difference.” I want people to think: “I went to her training and she gave me a tip that made life much easier.” Feedback like that feels good. It’s a big motivator for me and probably why I like having that interaction with people. I guess sometimes it’s just about making a little difference. You can make a difference to a small group of people for a relatively short time and that’s still significant.
I guess sometimes it’s just about making a little difference. You can make a difference to a small group of people for a relatively short time and that’s still significant.
You have an MBE because you made a difference to equality and diversity in the music industry. Is there still work to do?
The Equality Act (a big piece of legislation) didn’t come in until 2010. In 2007, most music companies didn’t have an equality policy. Even after 2010, most still didn’t – even though it became part of employment legislation. Generally, people leading record labels didn’t want to know.
There were people who didn’t want to put “we are an equal opportunities employer” in their job advert. And said: “I’m a man running an organisation and I have lots of women working for me. So there’s no problem.” That was largely the thinking behind not wanting to engage with it. Leaders didn’t see there was a problem or it didn’t affect them. Or they felt it was restrictive – like they were being told what to do. There was a lot of resistance and the process was hard.
Now, those music companies have equality, diversity and inclusion policies. Many have a dedicated member of staff or team. They have affinity groups representing views of different groups of employees. They’re putting money into training programmes, sponsoring events, paying for women’s leadership programmes and looking to develop more diverse leaderships.
That didn’t happen overnight. The work I was involved in, from 2007 to 2012, managed to get all the main representative bodies in the music industry to have a policy. That’s all we managed to do. And to have the conversation at board level. It meant employees or members of organisations could hold those organisations to account. They didn’t have to do it on their own. A lone female board director or lone black director didn’t have to keep raising the question. They had a policy and could measure whether they were delivering on that.
It’s great to see what’s in place now. But much of the progress was stimulated by people setting up their own groups. Black people in music set up groups. And since 2020 – and the murder of George Floyd – Black Lives Matter has been massive on the agenda. Women in music have set up their own groups and are another big driver. The push isn’t really coming from the top. Some stuff’s happening there. But there’s a groundswell of people taking and demanding action.
The people at the top had ignored this issue for a long time. In 2010 the TV industry (which has its own issues) had been investing in and running a diversity initiative across all broadcasters for years. And much of the music industry didn’t even have policies.
People still tell me about incidents that’ve happened to them (sexual harassment, bullying, blatant racism and more subtle concerns). People are still, frustratingly, having the same negative experiences which are stopping them from fulfilling their potential. And stopping them from getting what they deserve out of life based on their hard work and their talents.
But I do see people bringing up issues – they’re not standing for them and are pushing back. That’s really good. Because when I was working on equality and diversity, people wouldn’t bring it up. I know people who had horrendous experiences. When they complained, they were usually paid to leave quietly. But the person who abused them was allowed to stay. I know that still goes on, so it’s still not right. But I feel like people talk about it more.
That issue of people not being able to achieve their potential is what speaks to me and makes me do something.
People are still, frustratingly, having the same negative experiences which are stopping them from fulfilling their potential. And stopping them from getting what they deserve out of life based on their hard work and their talents.
Do music industry leaders now see the potential of an inclusive and diverse workforce?
Some do and some don’t. Also, it can be hard to do something about it and to get the balance right. I don’t think it was hard for people to have a policy. But getting rid of leaders who are racist in their actions – or even creating a workplace where everyone can genuinely say they feel included – is difficult. Employers aren’t able to please everybody all the time. As leaders, they must create balance and that’s challenging.
When I look back, there are things I’ve done wrong or missed that probably made somebody feel… well, not the best. Some tactless comment or something I set up that wasn’t accessible. But it’s important to have the ability to take stock. To reflect on conversations and incidents when you had one perception and somebody else had another perception. And to think critically about them. Can you see things from other people’s point of view? Can you listen? Can you have difficult conversations?
Who inspires you?
My parents. They’ve worked hard to make a difference, which is probably where I get it from. I grew up with them campaigning and holding political meetings. They’ve done all sorts of things most of us would find hard after a long day’s work – like getting up on a Saturday morning to run a Saturday school for black kids.
Herminia Ibarra is a professor of organisational behaviour. She writes about women in leadership and developing your identity as leader. Her book, Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader, tells us to learn how to lead by doing it and then reflecting on how it went. And I always recommend Brené Brown’s fantastic book, Dare to Lead. It combines her research on bravery, vulnerability and difficult conversations. These women have made a real contribution to thinking about compassionate and effective leadership.
How do you find confidence?
I want people to like what I’ve done and I want them to feel I’ve made a difference. The dark side of that is I worry about whether people are going to be happy. I’m afraid of criticism. That holds me back from doing so many things, because I’m imagining a critical audience and what they’ll say.
I realised I could reduce those fears when I discovered an Australian doctor called Claire Weekes. Her book Self-Help for Your Nerves said not to try to change how you feel, but to change what you do. So, don’t think: “I need to become a different person without these anxieties and then I’ll be able to live my life.” Instead, think: “I’m going to live my life with these anxieties. Sometimes they’ll bother me and sometimes they’ll be less prominent. And that’s OK.”
You can feel like an imposter and still be a founder or a CEO and run a successful business – or whatever you want to do. Successful sports people have worries and anxieties, but they’ve learned to manage them. There’s a whole field of sports psychology to enable them to do that. Because anxiety, doubt and fear can have a powerful impact on our performance. It can be intense. But we can find our way to still live our potential.
Anxiety, doubt and fear can have a powerful impact on our performance. It can be intense. But we can find our way to still live our potential.
If you could talk to a younger you, what would you say?
I would tell my younger self what I tell myself now – that I accept that part of me that’s full of anxiety. After many years of trying, I’m not convinced I can get rid of it. I have to let it be there and do things anyway to see what happens. And I do and it’s fine. But that part blocks things from flowing more easily. Weirdly, I like that aspect of being self-employed. It’s like you’re playing a sport against yourself – where you’re trying to improve all the time.
When I was younger, I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought, why do I feel like this when other people don’t? So, I’d tell my younger self that most people do feel the same. You don’t notice it when you’re younger because you’re so busy thinking about how you feel. If there are things you want to do but find challenging don’t give up on them. They may need more work than other things that come more easily to you. But there are things you can do to lessen the impact anxiety has on your life.
Remi Harris Consulting develops and delivers learning and development programmes. These include the Music Leaders Network for mid-career women in the music industry and the Creative Business Essentials Programme. Learn to test ideas, set up shop, master finances, market and sell, sell, sell. Remi’s worked with growth consultants, music studio owners, international arts centres, major record labels, dance companies, artists, makers, sculptors, agency owners, fashion brands, and influencers (I could go on…). In a nutshell, she develops the learning of talented people.
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